"Machoness" in games

[Parvini]

It occured to me the other day that I can't recall a game with a gay character in it or with any gay themes at all.

I want this thread to be both a discussion as to why this might be the case (and if it is a problem) and also as an opportunity to point to some examples (obscure or not, doesn't matter about the date of release for this one).

It seems to me that the gaming market has always been targetted at the same demographic - MALE GEEKS!! What is the perception of the "male geek"? The male geek likes action; the male geek likes to think of himself, or rather pretend, that he is macho; the male geek likes to think of himself "getting the girl"; the male geek is emotionally stunted; the geek male's idea of a good time is tying "pwned!!!" after killing an army of Orcs online! In short the "male geek" is the type of person who only ever wants to watch cheesy action films from the 1980s - Rambo, Predator, The A-Team etc.

Now, like me, you might be saying to yourself, "this isn't me and I'm a gamer", but I;m afraid it's the case. What it means is that while the rest of society has moved on and you could safely make a film like "Brokeback Mountain" now, the gaming community remains stunted by this narrow perception. And over the past 5 or 6 years I'd argue that this perception (from the developers and publishers) has got WORSE... think of all the wonderfully cheap and quirky titles that people made for the Spectrum, Amiga and even for the PC in the 80s and early 90s. Compare that variety to what we have now.... What do we have? A choice of FPS, third-person shooter/ GTA-style, the racer, Fantasy RPG, the RTS, a few of the old Civ-style 4x games and... um, that's about it. All classically "straight male" forms, all leave very little scope for something DIFFERENT ever emerging.

As gaming has become more mainstream and more commercial it has ironically become more homogenous, less diverse and as a result less interesting. Aside from "The Sims" and "The Movies", I can't think of one major release in the past 5 years that has bucked this trend of selling macho-bullshit to "male geeks". And OF COURSE, along with this trend goes a whole host of unspoken assumption: men are meant to be big, strong, heroic, able to kill things with big guns/swords and, most importantly, he is straight and will eventually get his girl who has (invariably) been kidnapped.

Is gaming forever to be trapped at the intellectual and cultural level of Rambo 3? I wouldn't go and see Rambo 3 if it was re-released in the cinemas so why am I expected to play a game that has the same intellegence and macho-ideology as Rambo? I'm especially interested to hear from girls and gay men about this...

[Pitkin]

Opinions of women or gay men?

Well... I don't know what'll come out of this writing of mine, but here goes nothing.

First of all, I second the experience of not having bumped into any game with gay characters or gay themes (apart from those typical prison-related jokes in GTA San Andreas).

I'd like to ask, however, what makes a game character gay? The sight of a male character kissing/dating/making out with another male character? Some kind of a statement or code in the game the characters lets out as 'gay'? Acting femininely and having a limp wrist? Are we looking for a flamer kind of a stereotypical gay homosexual, or are we interested in if the character stops to think how his male partner is doing at work elsewhere in the game industry every time the player presses pause?

Well, leaving that aside, why aren't there any gay heroes in games or gay themes? Actually, apart from a very few exceptions I cannot remember many movies with homosexual main characters; it's true the movie industry seems to have moved towards a more 'open-minded' attitude in the last years, but I dare to insist that the roles where we see gay characters in movies are still mostly those of comic reliefs. Some poor traveller hitting a gay orgy scene and being arrested, another one ending up at some cruise filled with screaming and made-up guys, drag queens, public restroom situations... I would be willing to be a fair share of my non-existing allowance on a guess, that 95% of mainstream movies show gays as comic relievers only.

Back to the actual question I had in mind... why not heroic gays, or gay main characters? Parvini-san put it quite well; games are typically a very 'straight male'-oriented issue. Why would a gamer want to relate to a gay man? It's hard for many people to even live on the same planet with someone not sharing the same preferences (I'll leave it at preferences), not to mention they'd have to play their games as / looking for / being assisted by gays. In the movies you don't at least have to do anything yourself to affect the outcome (just a casual 'eww, that's gay' suffices), but in a game you're actually an important part of the story. For an insecure straight male gamer, playing a game as a gay character or with deep 'gay themes' might feel the same as a British gamer was forced to face a game in German language (it's the 'not what I'm used to' part), except that when playing German-language games your middle school classmates won't (normally) surround you screaming 'faggot'.

Having gay characters or gay themes would not make the games any less 'macho' in my opinion, though. Even an openly gay character can operate a rocket launcher after going through marine training and save the Deimos' Moon Base from falling into the claws of demons. Even a straight male (I must apologise for sticking only to male people/characters in this post; it's not considered a sign of male chauvinism, I hope) can work his way through puzzles or everyday life without relying on excessive use of explosives or projectiles. The thing is, what else is there to give to the gamers than action, sports, adventures, fighting etc? Well, the Princess Maker series, to name one. Sotsugyoo Graduation, to name two.

To be honest, I'm far from certain if my post is on-topic at all. I'm going to stop right here and see if anyone has any comments to make to guide me back on to the track (or at least to the start line)...

But before, I'd like to ask once more: How many of gamers actually want to see gay themes in their games? How many gamers worldwide want to spend their time actually thinking instead of brainless 'sw33t, pwned!!!1!1' action? If the number doesn't rise high enough relative to the whole industry, there'll never be a broader variance within the mainstream titles than there is now. That's so gay.

edit: I knew this. First, I hate some wannabe-wiseguys for using so many parentheses in the middle of their sentences it makes it bloody tiresome to read... then, whenever I end up typing up anything longer than 'hiya', the whole blazing text proves to be nothing but question marks, quotation marks and those cursed parentheses. Oh well.

[Chroelle]

Well I just thought I would give my two cents (AKA Do an Eric), and add that there are in fact lots of movies out there with a gay theme, where the main character is gay, and not only for comic relief (or low blows).
The Danish movie Pretty boy and a total blockbuster: ... (and then I forgot the name of the movie...).... Boondock saints! (there i was)

I don't know if I am actually going longer offtopic, but I hope that this might help: I cannot remember seing any gay guys in any game I have ever played... Not even sidekicks...

(Just wanted to add yet a parenthesis)

[Parvini]

Opinions of women or gay men?

I'm not sure what you're asking here Pitkin, but I felt that these were two social groupings that might find themselves excluded from the "geek-world of 80's machoness" gamers live in.

I'd like to ask, however, what makes a game character gay? The sight of a male character kissing/dating/making out with another male character? Some kind of a statement or code in the game the characters lets out as 'gay'? Acting femininely and having a limp wrist? Are we looking for a flamer kind of a stereotypical gay homosexual, or are we interested in if the character stops to think how his male partner is doing at work elsewhere in the game industry every time the player presses pause?

Now, it was not my intention at all to suggest that all gay men must conform to a camp stereotype, all I was saying is that I've NEVER seen a gay man in a game - stereotypical or not.

I understand Pitkin's point about what Holloywood has done since sexuality has been "liberated", i.e. made mainstream. They are comic-relief characters, the poof we can laugh at, the eccentric hairdresser etc. etc. But this is only part of a process. Look at when we first really had black actors emerging in mainstream films - they all conformed to a 'black stereotype' - Eddie Murphy, the loud, wisecracking, streetwise black guy - comic relief. But that sort of thing made it more and more acceptable for the intolerant and bigotted sectors of white society to accept black people on our screens. We now have many films involving black characters where they don't make a deal out of the fact that the actor is black at all - look at Lawrence Fishburn in Matrix, Morgan Freeman in Seven or Samuel L. Jackson in The Negotiator - all black actors playing roles that just could easily have been "white roles".

The gay man in movies is probably about 10 years behind the black man - still mostly confined to stereotypical roles but films like Brokeback Mountain and Happy Endings are starting to challenge that.

All I'm saying is that the gaming industry is TOTALLY blind to gayness, it's like a child that doesn't want to know the truth about Santa Claus who puts his fingers in his ears and hums incessantly. The only time where I've EVER seen the possibility of a gay relationship in a game is in anomolous situations that the gamer can force him or herself - like in The Sims or in certain mods where the coder hasn't made a gender check in the romance.

What I worry about is that gaming hasn't moved with society - it has simply found its niche in cheesy 80s machismo. One of the reasons why I'm such a staunch "old gamer" is because many of the new games released seem to lack subtlety, intellegence, humour and most importantly of all variety.

Why am I still playing Baldur's Gate and not Neverwinter Nights or even Elder Scrolls: Oblivion? Because Baldur's Gate had the balls to do its own thing - the developer didn't MIND going the full hog and printing a 100 page booklet with detailed descriptions of every spell and character. The Baldur's Gate manuals have LOVE in them, a love of the subject matter. The same with the Monkey Island games. The same with so many old, quirky classics that I'm sure you all love too. These games don't directly appeal to that "macho demographic", they have a broad appeal, they speak BEYOND the male-geek dreams. And, most importantly, within them you can find the scope to imagine all sorts of possibilities. Although there wasn't one, it wouldn't have surprised me to find a gay character in either Baldur's Gate or Monkey Island.

And this is my worry. Is there even the SCOPE to make either of those two brillaint games now? When I opened Neverwinter Nights, I pulled out its filmsy booklet with its one-line descriptions of spell EFFECTS. I yawned my way through its woodenly acted prologue and turned it off after the first chapter. Where was the LOVE? Where was the attention to detail? WHY were they trying to appeal to the same people who'd buy Unreal??? I never played that game again, it remains dust-ridden on my shelf. There never was a Monkey Island 5.

What I'm trying to say is that whilst other industries diversify and are starting to embrace the world in all its wonderful depth and variety - the games industry is seeming to narrow itself. Its turning away from the sort of games that make me proud to be a gamer...

It eschews detail for flashy effects, replaces charm and character with streamlined functionality. In such a reductive and increasingly generic environment, how can the games industry ever appeal to anyone BUT the geek-male?

[elgado]

To start off, here's something slightly off topic: a few months ago I saw an old silent film called Pandora's Box. The film was pretty decent for its times, but one thing that got my attention was the fact that one of the main characters is a lesbian. This was back in 1929. Yes, lesbians haven't had to face as much discrimination as gay men, but the point still stands: what's going on in Hollywood isn't all that ground-breaking. Take, for example, the 60/70ish Midnight Cowboy; another film with gay themes. The only thing that makes Brokeback Mountain stick out is its explicitness and popularity.


Now, I hate having to go through the routine, but I'll go through it anyway: I'm not a homophobe. However, I don't see why there must be such an active push in "getting people out of the closet". That's how I perceive things. Living in Holland, it's not unusual to find gay bars or a same-sex couple holding hands. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me is what I believe to see an organised attempt at getting homosexuality out into the open and have society accept it. I accept it, but I reserve the right not to. But I've gone terribly off topic...

I'm in full agreement with you guys with regards to the quality of games today. Perhaps it's because I'm getting older or because developers are simply too hung up on graphics, but games simply don't appeal to me as much as they used to.

How many of gamers actually want to see gay themes in their games?

I'm open to the idea of playing game with a homosexual main character. However, to make the main character gay simply because noone's done it before is just being contrarian. The spirit behind such projects is very much like the anti-art movement of Dadaism.

How many gamers worldwide want to spend their time actually thinking instead of brainless 'sw33t, pwned!!!1!1' action?

Having a game with a gay protagonist doesn't necessarily mean you'll have to think. Princess Maker, a game you mentioned and one I enjoyed, didn't make me think anymore than, say, Deus Ex.

In the end, I'm all for a change in the industry. I just don't think people should be clamoring to make gay-themed games because there aren't any. That's like saying Ulgor Da Thump should get an Oscar because no other ethnic UgaBugas have ever gotten on. To me, it's the same principle.

[Retaliator]

It occured to me the other day that I can't recall a game with a gay character in it or with any gay themes at all.

Greetings, Parvini.
I've read some of your posts on OG... and found them most rational... But this little attempt of yours I found... daring.

I want this thread to be both a discussion as to why this might be the case (and if it is a problem) and also as an opportunity to point to some examples (obscure or not, doesn't matter about the date of release for this one).

The whole topic you're starting implies that you think that the overall... let us call it, cultural environment (including all of known arts and more) should always be updated and in complete accordance with the present state.
If 25% of the population was.. chinese - there should be 25% of Chinese protagonists, right? Same thing goes to any group, right?

Well, the whole principle you're trying to implement here is flawed...

You're implying favouritism that appeals a social group you consider the most powerful in the world - WMASPs, right?
And you're impying that the game market is tailored according to their tastes, right?

And you think it's wrong... or let me rephrase that into morally unacceptable. That's ok.

How do you think that could be corrected?

Let us look at two possible solution:
- change in balance of power (that's causing the discrimination)
- change in the overal image of things (what you're implying with this topic)

Now, the first way of solving this inquilty is megalomanic at best... but the latter doesn't change things much... ESPECIALLY when applying double standards...

Let me ellaborate:
'see... if you're trying to defend the rights of the groups that aren't WASPs, you'd have to start with those with the least power, the most labeled and antagonised ones.
And gays simply aren't the most antagonised social group in the world.

Why don't you suggest... I don't know... a game with an Iraqy hero saving the world? Or... Serbian protagonist.... any Slavic nation, in fact? Or a Cuban?
Why are you trying to apply double standards?

Also, there's two points supporting the non-inclusion of gay protagonists in games:
- the cliches, the archtypes and the concepts that are already here... WORK.
It sounds like a lousy argument, but it's the uncomfortable truth. It's all optimised according to market's taste.
- It's because some archtypes, concepts and cliches are simply good on their own, regardless of the market
A man hugging and kissing a woman will always produce a more romantic picture than with gays. Period. Men and women are ying and yang... made for each other, programed in their genes (or by God(s), whatever you like) for each other... it's been in all arts since the dawn of time for a reason...
... and games ARE art.... perhaps even more than any other art. And some concepts simply hold more appeal than others on their own. A simple fact. Sorry.

It seems to me that the gaming market has always been targetted at the same demographic - MALE GEEKS!! What is the perception of the "male geek"?

Geeks aren't necesarrily heterosexuals.
AND - not all heterosexuals are geeks.
AND - not all gamers are geeks. You're insulting whole generations here by generalising.

The male geek likes action; the male geek likes to think of himself, or rather pretend, that he is macho; the male geek likes to think of himself "getting the girl"; the male geek is emotionally stunted; the geek male's idea of a good time is tying "pwned!!!" after killing an army of Orcs online! In short the "male geek" is the type of person who only ever wants to watch cheesy action films from the 1980s - Rambo, Predator, The A-Team etc.

Completely true. A great point.
BUT - are you implying that Gay Rambo, Predator and A-Team would make the whole thing any better?

Now, like me, you might be saying to yourself, "this isn't me and I'm a gamer", but I;m afraid it's the case. What it means is that while the rest of society has moved on and you could safely make a film like "Brokeback Mountain" now, the gaming community remains stunted by this narrow perception. And over the past 5 or 6 years I'd argue that this perception (from the developers and publishers) has got WORSE... think of all the wonderfully cheap and quirky titles that people made for the Spectrum, Amiga and even for the PC in the 80s and early 90s. Compare that variety to what we have now.... What do we have? A choice of FPS, third-person shooter/ GTA-style, the racer, Fantasy RPG, the RTS, a few of the old Civ-style 4x games and... um, that's about it. All classically "straight male" forms, all leave very little scope for something DIFFERENT ever emerging.

You're right about everything but the crucial point... what the hell is so "male" about it?
Your perception of what's "male" 's pretty bizzare if this is what you think about masculinity...

Aside from "The Sims" and "The Movies", I can't think of one major release in the past 5 years that has bucked this trend of selling macho-bullshit to "male geeks".

You actually struck a point I've been having for years...
And it leads to the exact opposite conclusion.

Let me ellaborate: you're looking at it upside-down.

Have you ever considered how the whole "male-geek" thing's an oximoron?
There's nothing male about the "geek" concept.
I don't know if you're a feminist, or you just got things wrong... but geeks are universally ridiculed for their LACK of a social and sexual life.
What's so "male", or "heterosexual" about that?
Nothing. On the contrary.

My point:
The whole gaming industry (including the board games and PnP games) tends to emphasize violence that MIMICS masuline behaviour because...
... it's an outlet of poor NON-masculine geeks.
As simple as that.
They can't or don't have the balls to be men/machos in RL, so they're settling for occasional daydreaming.

So, on the contrary - the problem is not in the "masculine/macho"-ness in games... but in the bad habits of gamers, who, due to their personal problems DON't have a healthy social/sex life... so they settle for simulations of their desires.

And OF COURSE, along with this trend goes a whole host of unspoken assumption: men are meant to be big, strong, heroic, able to kill things with big guns/swords and, most importantly, he is straight and will eventually get his girl who has (invariably) been kidnapped.

You're so wrong that even out here I can feel how much it hurts being you.

The LACK of macho-fix is personified in the stereothypes you've mentioned. These games, in fact, make players gayer than ever.

Also, what made you think that men AREN't supposed to be big, strong and heroic?
And - what made you think that there's a concensus on that a man's not a man without a gun/sword?

And... what made you think that a man's a man without being straight?

Would you ellaborate on your view on what being a man is all about or are you just going to stand in the corner and criticize?

Is gaming forever to be trapped at the intellectual and cultural level of Rambo 3? I wouldn't go and see Rambo 3 if it was re-released in the cinemas so why am I expected to play a game that has the same intellegence and macho-ideology as Rambo? I'm especially interested to hear from girls and gay men about this...

You're especially interestedn in hearing from people you expect to promote your condiscending perspective AND have a discussion in the same time?
How quaint.

[Parvini]

Some interesting stuff written here. I must not be mistaken for a feminist or a gay rights crusader - I couldn't care less about whether or not gay men are in games or not. What I was attempting to do was use that issue as a lens through which I could highlight the wider issue of just how narrow the "reality" of games have become.

It seem ironic to me that as gaming in general becomes more mainstream it should become LESS diverse, LESS interesting and more homogenised. It seems strange that the 1990s market could support games as unusual (and yet layered with an attention to detail) as Pizza Tycoon, The Companions of Xanth, Crime City or Constructor - none of which attempt to appeal to some imagined "macho need" in the gamer, none of which try to insult my intellegence by repeatedly placing me in scenarios straight out of a James Bond film.

I am not saying that that there is no room for heroic-action in games... I like Half-Life or Deus EX as much as anything else... BUT it appears to me that this mode entirely dominates gaming to the point where it subsumes all else. Ok... perhaps it is not always Rambo-style machismo, we sometimes get the sleak modern equivalents (as in Half-life) or the rough urban equivalent (GTA), but it is still appealing to the same "macho need".

I'd agree totally with Retaliator's analysis that this need is often filling a LACK in the geek-male but I'd also argue that this need is illusory. What-is-more, I object to the fact that I constantly have to put up with this nonsense in almost every game I play. I can watch Die Hard but I'd object to ONLY watching Die Hard.

I can accept that Die Hard can exist along side Annie Hall... what I'm saying is that Annie Hall has no equivalent in gaming. There is no 'avant-garde' in gaming.

Let me switch to a Rock analogy - if games were rock stars we'd currently have lots and lots of Axl Roses, Bon Jovis... maybe even a few David Hasslehoffs... but we'd be entirely lacking in David Bowies or Lou Reeds. There is a blanket of machoness across the spectrum... and this is because, I would surmise, games are made for and more importantly MARKETED to the perceived "geek-males".


This can't be put down to the "medium of gaming" because there is nothing inherently macho about what games are. My argument is consitent because at its kernel is the concern that there is little to no room for CHANGE in such a narrow and stifling environment. Where are the all the Super Leagues of Hobokens of this world NOW? (do not mention Darwinia to me).

The area of homosexulity is just one area that gaming seems incapable of giving agency to, that and almost anything else that doesn't come within the remit of explicit violence and the enitre gamut of traditonal male hero-dom.

This is not your typical "games were so much better then" argument, I'm just saying that its weird that there was more scope for variety ten years ago than there is now and yet more people play games now.

EDIT (to answer more directly):

Would you ellaborate on your view on what being a man is all about or are you just going to stand in the corner and criticize?

I am alluding to the ideology of manhood as encapsulated by Rambo et al and to varying degrees in the narratives of our time from North by Northwest to Top Gun. Regardless of how you define manhood yourself, you can not deny that such an ideology exists.

You're especially interested in hearing from people you expect to promote your condiscending perspective AND have a discussion in the same time?
How quaint.

Don't don't get cheeky sunshine! Watch your tone please, we're all friends here .

To start off, here's something slightly off topic: a few months ago I saw an old silent film called Pandora's Box. The film was pretty decent for its times, but one thing that got my attention was the fact that one of the main characters is a lesbian. This was back in 1929. Yes, lesbians haven't had to face as much discrimination as gay men, but the point still stands: what's going on in Hollywood isn't all that ground-breaking. Take, for example, the 60/70ish Midnight Cowboy; another film with gay themes. The only thing that makes Brokeback Mountain stick out is its explicitness and popularity.

Yes - Brokeback was simply a shorthand example. Midnight Cowboy is a great film by the way, the editing in that is light years ahead of its time and Dustin Hoffman turns in one of the all time best improvised performances.

Elgado - more generally, the issue here is not whether or not we shoudl promote homosexuality - it is whether the games industry has sufficient scope to at least acknowledge its existence, or indeed the existence of anything other than its own warped vision of the world.

[Retaliator]

Some interesting stuff written here. I must not be mistaken for a feminist or a gay rights crusader - I couldn't care less about whether or not gay men are in games or not.

Well, you've gotta admit it was hard to tell from that first post.
Well, now it's obvious you're not. A freminist or a gay rights crusader would flame, instead of discussing.

What I was attempting to do was use that issue as a lens through which I could highlight the wider issue of just how narrow the "reality" of games have become.

That's a good and serious subject. What I was tryint to say that I believe that you've missed the core reason... or misinterpreted it.

It seem ironic to me that as gaming in general becomes more mainstream it should become LESS diverse, LESS interesting and more homogenised. It seems strange that the 1990s market could support games as unusual (and yet layered with an attention to detail) as Pizza Tycoon, The Companions of Xanth, Crime City or Constructor - none of which attempt to appeal to some imagined "macho need" in the gamer, none of which try to insult my intellegence by repeatedly placing me in scenarios straight out of a James Bond film.

Well... I'd sooner call them special-fx-fix than macho games...
Pizza Tycoon doesn't NEED a brand new CPU or a graphic card... but Rambo XVIII does.
I'd say that it's more of a need for a cheap, instant thrill than that it has anything to do with genders (the whole mainstreamisation, so to say).

I am not saying that that there is no room for heroic-action in games... I like Half-Life or Deus EX as much as anything else... BUT it appears to me that this mode entirely dominates gaming to the point where it subsumes all else. Ok... perhaps it is not always Rambo-style machismo, we sometimes get the sleak modern equivalents (as in Half-life) or the rough urban equivalent (GTA), but it is still appealing to the same "macho need".

Well, adventures generally seem "macho"... "machoism" is always adventurous... hell - that's the good thing about it.
Personally, I'd replace two years wortf of FPSs for Fallout 3 any time. Or Alpha Centauri 2. But while I enjoy games that promote thinking and have deep thinking behind them - most people don't want to think when playing games. That's why ie. RTSs have bogged down in making Warcraft/AoE clones with different flavors. It's pathetic, considering how live the genre was in mid 90s.

I'd agree totally with Retaliator's analysis that this need is often filling a LACK in the geek-male but I'd also argue that this need is illusory. What-is-more, I object to the fact that I constantly have to put up with this nonsense in almost every game I play. I can watch Die Hard but I'd object to ONLY watching Die Hard.

That's true.
But, then again - you can always explore the classics.
Like with movies - the games that stand the test of time are many and various.
I'm been told that Galactic Civilisations 2 is pretty damn good, for instance. And the core pack is downloadable and free - try it out.

I can accept that Die Hard can exist along side Annie Hall... what I'm saying is that Annie Hall has no equivalent in gaming. There is no 'avant-garde' in gaming.

... honestly, I can't think of a romantic comedy game... there are humorous games, but non of them are romantic.
That's a point there.
Honestly - I blame the lack of female gamers, or perceived lack of female gamers. Aren't they the group that watches most of romantic comedies?

Besides - have you ever thought that the real reason could be in setbacks of making such stories interactive?

Let me switch to a Rock analogy - if games were rock stars we'd currently have lots and lots of Axl Roses, Bon Jovis... maybe even a few David Hasslehoffs... but we'd be entirely lacking in David Bowies or Lou Reeds. There is a blanket of machoness across the spectrum... and this is because, I would surmise, games are made for and more importantly MARKETED to the perceived "geek-males".

There you go.
Playing a lot of games is demanding on one's time. That's the way they're designed. That has it's own side-effects... which mostly impact one's social life... since one can't sit and play games all day AND be much active, informed and spend a lot of time with other people.

This can't be put down to the "medium of gaming" because there is nothing inherently macho about what games are. My argument is consitent because at its kernel is the concern that there is little to no room for CHANGE in such a narrow and stifling environment. Where are the all the Super Leagues of Hobokens of this world NOW? (do not mention Darwinia to me).

Personally, I blame the trend of having to create visually interesting games that would need better CPUs and Graphic cards.

The area of homosexulity is just one area that gaming seems incapable of giving agency to, that and almost anything else that doesn't come within the remit of explicit violence and the enitre gamut of traditonal male hero-dom.

Well... having Rambo and Terminator kick ass and then make up would be a anti-climax...

This is not your typical "games were so much better then" argument, I'm just saying that its weird that there was more scope for variety ten years ago than there is now and yet more people play games now.

That's completely true. Sad, but true.
It could be the whole trend of small and medium game design studios getting stepped on...
But if you look at the market of mini-games, games mare by small studios... situation's much better.

I am alluding to the ideology of manhood as encapsulated by Rambo et al and to varying degrees in the narratives of our time from North by Northwest to Top Gun. Regardless of how you define manhood yourself, you can not deny that such an ideology exists.

Well... some call Top Gun the gayest of films...
I agree that such ideology exists... but personally, I blame the fact that it's an archtype.
Look at it this way:
The more it sells, the better (in both movie and game industry).
Cheap thrills prevail over deep thoughts here.
Cheap thrills mean exitement.
Exitement means adventures, action.
Adventures with action have their own standard formula:
the hero, villain, lots of action, hero's victory.
You can't have a hero that's not cocky, confident and aggresive.
And all of those are macho thraits.
Some try being original by having a female hero, but personally, I've always seen it as a Geek thing.

You're especially interested in hearing from people you expect to promote your condiscending perspective AND have a discussion in the same time?
How quaint.

Don't don't get cheeky sunshine! Watch your tone please, we're all friends here .

My nigger.

Elgado - more generally, the issue here is not whether or not we shoudl promote homosexuality - it is whether the games industry has sufficient scope to at least acknowledge its existence, or indeed the existence of anything other than its own warped vision of the world.

Variety isn't something you should expect anytime soon by the way things are moving...
The only difference is that, personally, I don't think having gay characters would be improvement on it's own. Especially - when put blatantly there, just to appeal to a different public.... the same way I, ie. don't approve that... what's-it-called shooter... in which you keep shooting penises, while masturbating for ammo, and firing sperm. It's off the chart when it comes to ambient - but it's boring, if not gross.

What you CAN have is originality WITHIN the norm.
Have you ever played "Outcast"?
You've got a US SEAL as a protagonist... but the character's interesting and original nevertheless...
Sometimes old, already seen plots can be made great when they're implemented with honest enthusiasm and love for games.

[Pitkin]

Excellent posts so far, it's very nice to be reading this forum.

Opinions of women or gay men?

I'm not sure what you're asking here Pitkin, but I felt that these were two social groupings that might find themselves excluded from the "geek-world of 80's machoness" gamers live in.

Wasn't my intention to ask anything, Parvini-san. Was just paying attention to the lack of replies so far back then. Forgot to add the "*looks around*" after that to emphasize the issue, though.

Variety isn't something you should expect anytime soon by the way things are moving...
The only difference is that, personally, I don't think having gay characters would be improvement on it's own. Especially - when put blatantly there, just to appeal to a different public...

What you CAN have is originality WITHIN the norm.

This is something I find very easy agreeing with. Having a gay (main) character in the game doesn't mean any more of an improvement to the game itself than having a straight male, female, female/male dog or a mutant camel as one of the characters. Sure, when the 'exceptional' character choice contributes to the game in some way, it's absolutely welcome. On the other hand, as Retaliator-san pointed out, stuffing such a character forcibly into a game just to reach different public makes nothing but another grey mass-produced game with no real innovations.

edit:

How many gamers worldwide want to spend their time actually thinking instead of brainless 'sw33t, pwned!!!1!1' action?

Having a game with a gay protagonist doesn't necessarily mean you'll have to think. Princess Maker, a game you mentioned and one I enjoyed, didn't make me think anymore than, say, Deus Ex.

Oh, but PM2 actually made me think a lot more than an average game. I spent countless hours just thinking of different possible schedules, something which I've not done with many other games. The Princess Maker series, the aforementioned Graduation and the Championship/Football Manager series are the only games (apart from puzzles) having actually made me think during the gameplay. But you're right, naturally, when saying that having a gay protagonist alone won't make you think any more when playing.

[mistergreen77]

What I was attempting to do was use that issue as a lens through which I could highlight the wider issue of just how narrow the "reality" of games have become.

It seem ironic to me that as gaming in general becomes more mainstream it should become LESS diverse, LESS interesting and more homogenised. It seems strange that the 1990s market could support games as unusual (and yet layered with an attention to detail) as Pizza Tycoon, The Companions of Xanth, Crime City or Constructor - none of which attempt to appeal to some imagined "macho need" in the gamer, none of which try to insult my intellegence by repeatedly placing me in scenarios straight out of a James Bond film.

I don't think it is irony. The same thing happens with any industry. When the concept is new and a few people are trying it then there is experimentation and development - when there is a mass market to satisfy there is mass production and profit. Sex and violence are the lowest common denominators amongst a much more diverse gaming market. It is no longer just geeks that play them. As the market has diversified the industry has become narrower. It is like movie buffs who know how to appreciate a good movie are usually disappointed by the drivel that hollywood keeps manufacturing to making money from the box office. Once in a while there comes along real gems - maybe it is 'critically acclaimed' - but most people fail to appreciate what is really good about them. Now that anyone can use a computer, that is as much as we can hope for. Occasionally really good games will be made, and we will buy them and appreciate them. More often, developers will keep manufacturing games for people who don't know the difference.

[Parvini]

The period between the mid-1990s and 2002 gave us real depth, well written "deep" games, which made an effort not only to tell a story but to give us an explorable world where you'd find things that weren't only necessary to the plot...

Aside from Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment and aside from the point 'n' clickers - Money Island 1-4, Grim Fandango (and most other things by LucasArts), Companions of Xanth, Crosstime Saloon (and most other things by Legend Entertainment). We've got Deus EX - which is intellegent by most people's standards (I'm thinking particularly of the books you can find scattered around people's offices relating to who would actually read them, that sort of attention to detail); Theif 1 and 2 (both "deeper" than Thief 3 in my book); Omikron: The Nomad Soul - flawed but well written, well acted and engrossing; Some of the Ultima games; Warcraft 3 and its exapansion had a GREAT story and really well written; Return to Krondor was "deep" if a little short; Jagged Alliance; Neuromancer; System Shock and, of course, System Shock 2; Little Big adventure 2 (great attention to detail and "deepness" there) even in a cartoon world; The Command and Conquer games had pretty involving stories too; The Gabriel Knight series... And lest we forget about many of the "quirky" titles like Crime City or KGB: Conspiracy that had wonderful attention to detail even down to diary entries or how the lead character would lie to his mum on the phone or whatever... need I go on?

I'm not just talking about 1 or 2 games here, but an industry wide trend of "dumbing down" and streamlining, taking genuine character away from the player who'd like to find more or see more or feel more - reducing the game to little more than a stylish version of Space Invaders!

The period of the mid-90s until I'd say the end of 2002 finally started to offer real depth to gamers. Just look at the Space 4x genre as an example:

Master of Orion 2
Imperium Gallactica

These games offered incredible variety and depth, real attention to detail, a real sense of two planets or two alien species being different, a sense of a varied and interesting galaxy to explore.

Comapre that will Master of Orion 3 and Galactic Civizations (1) and you'll see what I'm on about.

Have people actually started to get THICKER in the new century? Is there no-one who wants more than just a "quick thrill" with their games?

It's pointless talking about pc gaming being open enough to have even ONE gay character when it can't even do the things that it was traditionally good at right. If I wanted EVERY GAME to be an "macho-driven" FPS I'd buy an XBOX... whatever happened to the PC being the home of the thinking man's gamer? Whatever happened to the PC being the place where you could excape the drivel served by the lorry-load to the console masses?

[mistergreen77]

Although I think the idea that games need gay characters is misguided, I agree with Parvini's point.

Whatever happened to the PC being the place where you could excape the drivel served by the lorry-load to the console masses?

This is what I mean, now that everybody owns a pc there is no escape. The distinction between console masses and pc gamers is disappearing. Consoles are now being designed to integrate with pc's because developers know that if everyone doesn't already have a pc the time is not far off. Consider newspapers for example, in my country there are countless newspapers tailored for mediocrity - only a handful that thinking people can read without feeling their intelligence is being insulted. Games have become mediocre because gamers have become mediocre. In this forum, I think you are preaching to the converted - but how do you initiate the masses in to the mysteries of our religion?

[Retaliator]

Whatever happened to the PC being the place where you could excape the drivel served by the lorry-load to the console masses?

...is there a thread like this in OG?
Just out of curiosity....

I think you are preaching to the converted - but how do you initiate the masses in to the mysteries of our religion?

By supporting my game designs.
I've got one that would be revolutionary... but it'd take huge resources for it... the design proccess alone would be huge.... but it'd be out-of-box, alright...
Yo! Elgado! Have you got that game design I've described to you on FF3 somewhere on you? Or a link to one of the FF tombs that's got it?

[mistergreen77]

By supporting my game designs.

You could show me your ideas but you should be taking your ideas to developers. But then it could suffer the fate of many good ideas, being compromised in design by commercial objectives like budgets and deadlines.