Genres - we need YOU to answer here...

[Eric]

But RTS is defined by all objects and players moving at anytime, while a TBS is based on moving in turns, and is hence much less hectic...

True - but if I'm searching for a game based on a theme I would initially start my search as broad as possible. I think it's great to be able to place everything neatly into a slot - but in searching for a game you miss the game you're looking for because your definition isn't sharp enough or you never see some potential alternatives. So the idea of sub-categories becomes promising, if do-able.

Another point to consider is this - usually the game will have been defined by its creator anyway - so why not simply use their definition to classify the game.

Here's something interesting;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_a ... ame_genres

[Pater Alf]

Here´s my try to make a genre list including sub-genres:

Action: First Person Shooter, Beat´m Up, Sidescroller, Top-Down-Shooter, 3D Action
Adventure: Point´n Click, Text Adventures, Action Adventures
Role Playing Games: Classic Style, Console Style
Adult
Arcarde
Platform
Strategy: Real Time Strategy, Turn Based Strategy, 4X
Simulating: Managing, Flying, Driving
Sports
Racing
Logic / Puzzle: Board Games
Remake: C64, Spectrum, Amiga, Atari, PC
Special Permission

I know that "Remake" and "Special Permission" (games that can not be found somewhere else legally) are no game genres, but it might be things that people are looking for. I´m also sure I missed lots of sub-genres, so if you like feel free to complete the list...

[moshboy]

Whether it be themes, sub-genres, whatever... it essentially boils down to the same thing.. all I am saying is that if you list too many genres in a row it looks a little ridiculous and even with sub-genres/themes its best not to go overboard unless your planning to add a 'tagging' system to the site.

Technically remakes/clones are not a genre, however it is pretty obvious the games that are intended to be and the games that aren't. Ofcourse every game is inspired by another game in some form but that doesn't really count if it has enough original features.

[Chroelle]

I think so far we are not listing genres, meaning that we are not going with the long list of genres on one side of the forntpage. So far I am thinking in searchterms and labels for games. How we do the list is another matter and will be dealt with later on. I think it could be a menu with sublevels, so if you have something like the main genres that Pater Alf lists, and they can open up into a more specific subgenre-listing, while all games that are listed with for example Roleplaying game are shown, and then you press classic style and it only shows the ones with that label.

[Scythe]

This is how I'd do it, from scratch: Have a list of genres that open up in a tree of subgenres. Double click the genre and you get all the games in every subgenre listed, click a subgenre and you... only get that (surprise). Oh, that's exactly what Chroelle said above. I'd name them really badly, because I suck at naming, but just to give suggestions. If I missed some obvious genres/subgenres, sorry, I didn't do research, ok? Some games go in multiple genres, no problem.

Genre - subgenre (game example; not displayed, real life examples)
- subgenre (game example; just to understand my subgenres)
- Other; all genres could have this, for games that don't fit

Adventure - 3D (Grim Fandango)
- Interactive Fiction (Scott Adams Adventureland)
- Point n' Click (Monkey Island)

Arcade Classics (no subgenre; Pac Man, Commando...)

Beat 'em Up - Fighting (Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat)
- Side Scroller* (Double Dragon, Golden Axe)

*I don't distinguish between forced scrolling and push the screen scrolling, nor between moving sideways or in other directions.

Exclusives (no subgenre; Harald Hardtooth)

Fun* - Board Games (Othello, Chess)
- Card Games (Solitaire, Hearts)

*I know "Fun" sucks as a genre; bite me.

Platformers (no subgenre; Superfrog)

Puzzle - Arcade (Chip's Challenge, Tetris)
- Other (The Fool's Quest, 7th Guest)

RPG* - Action RPG (Diablo, Zelda)
- Traditional RPG (Betrayal at Krondor, Might and Magic)

*Possibly Console RPG as subgenre, but I think they can be lumped with the other two.

Racing - 2D (Powerdrive, Super Offroad)
- 3D (Trackmania)

Shoot 'em Up - 3D (Uhm... I might put FPS in here, if not their own genre)
- Side Scroller* (Defender, Zaxxon)

*I don't distinguish between forced scrolling and push the screen scrolling, nor between moving sideways or in other directions. I put Shooters that don't involve space ships in here as well, such as Commando or Alien Obliteration.

Simulation - Business (GameBiz, Transport Tycoon)
- Flight Sim (Flight Simulator, includes tanks, U-boats, etc.)
- God Sim (The Sims, Populous)

Sports - Manager (Championship Manager)
- Player (Sensible Soccer, World Games)

Strategy* - Real Time (Dune 2)
- Turn Based (Master of Magic, Warlords)

*I still haven't figured out what 4X is... but if it's obviously missing, it's obviously missing.

[Eric]

bite me.

A tempting offer, for sure....

Actually, I think "fun" is a good way to cover multiple game types, such as board games, sinced these usually involve the interaction between people.

This will answer all your questions on what 4X is.

However, despite the obvious effort, I prefer Pater Alf's list. It's short, sweet and to the point. Completely unlike myself actually. Mostly.

[Chroelle]

The one thing I cant get out of my head is that when you write fun as a genre, then you actually imply that the other genres are...well...not fun!
I have no better suggestion - and I think I am going with the "not biting" and accept it as a genre...

I think Scythe just described my meaning... ALOT better than I could have done it... Also a few games might be both a sidescroller beat em up and a sidescroller shoot em up to name something easy, and in this case the game will show in both genres. And if we are the only ones allowed to host it, then it will show up in exclusives too...
I think that one of the problems might be that we have two seperate genres saying, arcade and arcade classics. The problem is that I am the one putting genres on games, and if I don't know a game i might just go with arcade... And it might be a classic, so please when you make posts about games in freeware forum, please put genres on them. It is not all games that I play (some are validated by three other GH's) so sometimes I have a hard time knowing what the gamegenre is...

[Scythe]

This will answer all your questions on what 4X is.

Ah. You know, I actually have heard that term before, now that I see it explained. I'd, personally, still lump it with RTS/TBS. But I only make suggestions, people on the higher rungs will decide.

The one thing I cant get out of my head is that when you write fun as a genre, then you actually imply that the other genres are...well...not fun!

Exactly. Which is why it's not terribly good. But nobody seems to bite.

There's nothing wrong with mixing various suggestions until it makes good sense, though I'd get a headache too. Which is pretty much what I have from staying up way too late (damn you, Oblivion, but at least now I've finished Main Quest and every Faction Quest, yay!).

I like Pater Alf's list too, I just don't necessarily agree on all the choices, and instead of trying to modify it, I made my own (looks like more effort, but actually wasn't), and let the big heads hammer it into shape.

[Chroelle]

Are there any genres we are missing? I really would like to know...??? Please go brainstorm and see if you can find a game on your shelves that is not covered by the current genres... I will do the same.

[Pater Alf]

What about a game like "Privateer remake". Would you consider it as "Simulation" or "3D action"?

[Maz]

Both. And also as a remake and flying.

[Eric]

The one thing I cant get out of my head is that when you write fun as a genre, then you actually imply that the other genres are...well...not fun!

I don't believe that calling one group fun means other aren't. Anyway, it's a moot point. I don't believe that it's a good name for a genre either...

But what I do believe is that in the past when I have played board games with friends / family I've always had "fun".

I'd, personally, still lump it with RTS/TBS.

I agree. Unless we did go for a larger list of genres, in which case, 4X would deserve it's own group.

[Parvini]

For me, 4x games are distinct from TBS/ RTS games in many ways. I can see an argument for say, Warcraft and Heroes of Might and Magic going in the same genre, or, say, Command and Conquer and Panzer General - but I CAN'T accept those games going in the same category as Civ, Alpha Centauri, Colonization, Galactic Civilizations, Imperium Gallactica, Master of Orion, Master of Magic, Imperialism, Ascendancy, Europa Universalis and any other 4x game that might have slipped my mind.

This is not some little nuance difference - like the difference between FPS and Sneaker, or even between a side-scrolling platformer (e.g. Mario, Sonic) and a side-scrolling shooter (e.g. Contra, Megaman) I'd argue that the CORE MECHANICS of a 4x game are fundamentally different to and distinct from that of the TBS or RTS.

As a case study, let me demonstrate how, say the platformer and 2d shooter have a VERY SIMILAR core mechanic:

Platformer

-You control a single character who can jump and improve him/herself in a variety of way (which afford him/ her further powers) through powerups
-You play through various levels, often meeting end bosses at key stages

2d shooter
-You control a single character who can jump, SHOOT and improve him/herself in a variety of way (which afford him/ her further powers) through powerups
-You play through various levels, often meeting end bosses at key stages

So you see, they are virtually identical - there is very little you can point to in the core mechanics of Megaman that is distinct from Mario. However when we come to study the TBS/ RTS against the 4x genre in the same way, the same cannot be said:

TBS/ RTS core mechanics etc.

-You are in control of an army or faction
-To build troops you must first build the necessary building
-Troops also require resources that must be mined/ harvested etc.
-The techtree is advanced by bulding new buildings which often require a set of older buildings to be built
-New and better troops can be trained by building new buildings
-The aim is to defeat the opposition army/ faction
-Gameplay takes place over a finite space, usually a limited map
-In TBS you take turns to do that, in RTS it plays out in real time

4x core mechanics etc.
-You are in control of an entire nation
-You can build cities/ establish colonies on planets in which can build improvements/ new buildings
-You can choose to use these buildings to make military troops OR concentrate on improving research, diplomacy or any one of a number of other areas
- The techtree is advanced through RESEARCH rather than through buildings
- Gameplay takes place over a large explorable area - usually "the world" or a galaxy or even "the universe"
- The aim is to be the greatest civilization through a variety of means
- Usually, you will take turns in which to move

This is my case and I think CWF, as self-respecting gamers, would do well to take heed.

[Scythe]

I completely disagree. So called 4X games are turn based strategy games in my mind. I feel it would be extremely unfair to TBS to force it to conform to the limitations you have outlined.

[Parvini]

To me TBS = Panzar General, Heroes of Might and Magic, Darklords, Age of Wonders um... maybe Jagged Alliance and the X-com games too.

Surely we must make a distinction between the close focus of these games compared with the scope and epic sweep of the 4-x games.

[Eric]

And for the sake of argument, I disagree too!

The differences can hardy be called fundamental - the core mechanics, as you call it, really aren't all that different... both your lists are the same!

RTS/TBS Vs 4X:

1. You have units, you attack other units with your units.

2. There's a map, be it a starmap or be it topographical.

3. You research tech to improve your economic status and war machine.

4X can be "generalized" into the Strategy genre with TBS with no problems

[Chroelle]

I will however not disagree that 4x could be a subgenre, since it does define a genre itself (which can be brought under bigger genre if you ask me). So gamers that are looking for games like civ doesn't end up with something like Panzer General.

[moshboy]

I think for sub-genres to be worth including on a site they should at least have a few games. Clicking on a sub-genre and only finding one game or an empty screen doesn't look very professional IMO.

[Chroelle]

I think that we can make a suggestion here. If a member can fit 5 games on the site into a genre, then we agree that it should be a genre (that is of course if we agree). The member will then be rewarded something when we get the whole "points-thingy, that is not points" going. A lot of our features should be made so that members can help out with the site. Finding pics, games and info is already on the list, so why not let them find genres and suggest searchterms....?
Good thinking Moshboy!

[Pater Alf]

Very often when I add a game to the database, I´m confused because there is no category for simple action. We just have 3D action, 1st Person shooter, Beat´em Up, but no Shoot´em Up or 2D action.

So I classified a game like "Raging Skies" as Flying, Arcarde and Misc. But in fact it´s simple Action.

Maybe we can add a category for this type of games?