The problem of indentification

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Eric
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Post by Eric »

Zandrav Ibistenn wrote:Most comprehensible statements are logical within their own conceptual framework. However, a certain standard must be set if individuals are to meaningfully discuss the particulars of their surrounding environment.
Sooo, since you find such views (presumably) incomprehensible or you "can't meaningfully discuss" them, you don't permit them into the discussion or you can't/won't argue them because you find them illogical?

What was that you said about "Perception is everything in life" or "Predjuces against new ideas".....

Zandrav Ibistenn wrote:A working standard, I think, would be that any hypothesis by default is false until substantiated beyond reasonable doubt.
Thus, postulating that thoughts are powered by the divine demands more convincing explainations than what the rivalling hypothesis is able to offer.
But this doesn't mean the rival hypothesis is incorrect but merely that, due to a lack of physical evidence, it cannot be proven. We are accepting the theory which has the most conclusive evidence - but doesn't mean it's the correct one or "The Truth".


Cheers,

Eric
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Zandrav Ibistenn
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Post by Zandrav Ibistenn »

I harbour no such prejudices. Simply show me a mechanism for the effect of His Noodly Appendages on the thought processes that are more convincing than what science has to offer and I'll change my mind.

Stating that "I don't believe that A is A because I don't want to" is illogical. And before you're going to accuse me of something else, Eric, you shall have to explain why you don't think so - and how you can expect to have a meaningful discussion if such statements are valid arguments.
Along the same lines I could state that "I don't believe in my own mortality because I don't want to". And I sincerely hope you'll agree that such a belief is completely illogical.
Eric wrote:What was that you said about "Perception is everything in life"
You don't want to misinterpret that. I'm talking exclusively about sensory input.
Chroelle wrote:If I am to be honest here, I think Kualle is kidding... I am not sure though. I am simply saying this due to the fact that Kualle never struck me as a religious type...
But again, such a statement would be rational if your picture of the world is based around something specific as religion.
As I said, most statements are rational within their own conceptual framework.
Religion is irrelevant, I'm objecting against the illogical nature of saying something as "I don't believe in A because I don't want to."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

(I thought of this as a trifle, but apparently it isn't) :?
Man's fault lies in his propensity towards willingly doing what feels good and his procrastinating reluctance to doing what is immediately uncomfortable but good.

Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.
- Immanuel Kant

Custodian of the Symposium.

[b]Error Tracking[/b]: Let's begin at the amygdala...
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Parvini
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Post by Parvini »

Zandrav, Eric and others - to address this topic I must, as I usually do, make a recourse to French structuralism, namely Louis Althusser and Michael Foucualt, and in doing so both, following as they do Neitzche and Heidegger, REJECT both German idealism and, more importantly, REJECT humanism. At its core, humanism posits an idea of an "essential" human self which transcends its cultural context and is somehow formed before the moment of being in society. This is a conception that makes no sense to me and I utterly reject it. I detect a residue of humanist thought in the claim that it is first and foremost THE BRAIN that magically knows how to filter information - I do not believe that the brain would do this automatically or necessarily in the same way if it had not been socially conditioned to in the first place. We know a certain configuration of sand and recognise it as "a beach", first and foremost, because we've been conditioned to recognise it as such - the concept of the beach always-already prefigures the beach itself. This social conditioning force is called "ideology", it functions through various discourses and can be defined as the representation of the human individual's imagined relationship to the world around him. This is the force that let's us recognise a police man as a representative of the law, it is the force that allows us to identify ourselves as "free" and "autonomous" individuals.

Here is some stuff from my PhD thesis that explains this in some more depth:
Originally written in Parvini's thesis
As a Marxist writing in the 1960s , Althusser was concerned with why the uprising Marx predicted in The Communist Manifesto didn’t happen. Rather than speaking of “culture”, Althusser shifts the emphasis to “ideology” which is defined as representative of ‘the imaginary relationship of individuals to their real conditions of existence’ . And this relationship ‘has the function… of “constituting” concrete individuals as subjects’ via a process of interpellation: individuals are interpolated as concrete subjects so that they can recognise themselves as ‘concrete, individual, distinguishable and (naturally) irreplaceable subjects’ . It is mainly through ideology then that the State is able to keep its subjects subordinate and therefore not rising up in rebellion.

Althusser makes a distinction between what he calls the Repressive State Apparatus (RSA), when the State is forced into action to physically apprehend or subdue its subjects, and the Ideological State Apparatus (ISA), which is far more insidious in that it dominates its subjects through their own thought processes, it makes natural or “second nature” that which has been learnt. Like Geertz’s cathedral, for Althusser, ideology has a material existence, the “ISAs” take the form of ‘Churches, Parties, Trade Unions, families, some schools, most newspapers, cultural ventures’ . Their effects are so all-encompassing that ‘an individual is always already a subject, even before he is born’ in that a child will already have a name, a social context, an identity, a gender and a spectrum of social roles he or she will be expected to fill in the future. The State is thus able to reproduce the conditions of its own reproduction in its subject so that, as long as this process takes place successfully, overthrow is virtually impossible. To use a ‘real life’ example (for Althusser’s own examples are seldom cogent) as a subject of the Capitalist West when I walk into a shop and wish to buy a chocolate bar (note that the concepts of monetary exchange, buying, selling, being a customer, shops, chocolate bars, shops that sell chocolate bars and wanting to buy a chocolate bar are always-already inscribed in me as “natural” here), I expect to have a choice between at least fifteen or more chocolate products with at least three or more brands available – and I take it for granted that this “choice” is a good choice, if I go into the shop and (shock!) it only has the one chocolate bar available, I see that as bad – I am a consumer, I have money that I have worked for and, as a consumer and a good capitalist subject, I expect a choice of chocolate bars. So a consumer choice like this is (naturally) a desirable one and if I want to make such choices I need to get money, and so I must also choose from the myriad of possible roles available to me, I’ve always been told I am good at writing things so perhaps it might be a good idea to choose for myself the role of literary critic so then I could not only choose between different chocolate bars but also choose between different houses, different cars, different DVDs, different television sets and so on. But for Althusser, all such choices are necessarily illusionary – there is no real freedom in my choices – in that in each instance I am merely reinforcing the State, merely replicating my ideologically inscribed role as consumer. My choice to be a literary critic was in fact no choice at all but something determined, in a different set of circumstances I might have been a bin man, a doctor, a pub landlord, a supermarket assistant or even a hairdresser: each of these roles exists, each is always-already filled with someone who has supposedly chosen to fill that role. For Althusser this illusionary choice is ideology’s foremost tool of containment, individuals don’t rebel because they live in the belief that they are free and autonomous rather than subject and exploited and, as Terry Eagleton suggests, ‘unless we did so we would be incapable of playing our parts in social life’ .

And much of this thought pre-figures the work of Althusser’s former student, Michael Foucault, who ultimately proved to be more palatable to the new historicists who may have found Althusser too State-centric and above all too Marxist for Cold War-era American tastes. Like Althusser, Foucault owed much of his thought to Saussurean structuralism in that he was still committed to the idea of a readily analysable finite structural system. Rather than talking about “culture” or “ideology”, Foucault is primarily concerned with ‘power relations’ that are held together by ‘fields of discursive events’ , or put more simply, by discourses. For Foucault all discourse necessarily entails a power-relation, which should ‘take as its model a perpetual battle’ rather like dialogue in a Harold Pinter play where one party is always dominating and subjecting another. Like Althusser’s ideology, for Foucault these various discourses help to govern

The fundamental codes of a culture – those governing its language, its schemes of perception, its exchanges, its techniques, its values, the hierarchy of its practices – establish for every man, from the very first, the empirical orders with which he will be at home.

However, unlike Althusser’s static notion of ideology emanating from ISAs onto hapless individuals, Foucault’s discourses:

Cannot be localized in a particular type of institution or state apparatus… these relations go right down into the depths of society… they are not localized in the relations between state and it citizens… they do not merely reproduce at the level of individuals, bodies, gestures, and behaviour, the general form of the law or government… there is neither analogy nor homology, but a specificity of mechanism and modality… They are not univocal; they define innumerable points of confrontation, focuses of instability, each of which has its own risks of conflict, of struggles, and of an at least temporary inversion of power relations.

It is clear to see here that Foucault is in some form of dialogue with Althusser, where Althusser’s theory is homogenous, unitary and watertight, Foucault’s is heterogeneous, fractured and bursting with sites of conflict. Althusser makes a differentiation between what he calls “scientific knowledge” and “ideological knowledge”, for him, most common knowledge, the knowledge of common sense for example, is ideological; but he reserves a special category of knowledge for “science”, which for him, somehow, is able to objectively observe “the truth”, free of the taint of ideology – Marx’s critique of capitalism, Freud’s “discourse of the unconscious” or Lacan’s conception of the “mirror-phase” would both fall into this category . Foucault implicitly rejects this model of knowledge with his claim that ‘power produces knowledge… power and knowledge directly imply one another… there is no power relation without the correlative constitution of a field of knowledge, nor any knowledge that does not presuppose and constitute at the same time power relations’ . So it is impossible for an individual to know anything at all without being subject to a power relation or to the effects of a power relation, in this way, individuals can be said to be always-already in the grip of power-knowledge.
I think a discussion of Foucualt imparticular here would be most cogent here as both self-identification and the identification of anything in the world AS part of a particular order in the world is inextricably bound up with the formative power of discourse.

I think the discussion so far, whilst interesting, fails to account for this and Zandrav and Eric must give full consideration to it (though, of course, not necessarily agree) in order to properly come to an answer regarding the problem of perception and of identification.
"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n" - John Milton (Paradise Lost, Book I, lines 254-55)
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Eric
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Post by Eric »

Zandrav Ibistenn wrote:(I thought of this as a trifle, but apparently it isn't) :?
Well, it is really. I don't actually believe what I'm arguing. ;)

But it's a greater challenge to argue a point I don't believe in rather than something I do believe in. So, don't think I'm having a go at you, just in case the thought ever crosses your mind - I'm just playing the devils advocate.
Zandrav Ibistenn wrote:You don't want to misinterpret that. I'm talking exclusively about sensory input.
Ah. But you never clearly stated that it was related to sensory input only... we had also briefly discussed that what we percieved via our senses was subject to intereptation (or mis-intereptation) by our brain - which isn't directly sensory related but certainly affects the perception.
Zandrav Ibistenn wrote:Stating that "I don't believe that A is A because I don't want to" is illogical.
It certainly is... but I never made such a statement. What I did say is that just because the evidence for A doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that B is automatically correct....

To expand that:

"Thought is a chemical reaction" (A) Vs "Thought is 'something' else" (B)

On side A we have physical evidence which shows proof.

On side B we have, well, no hard evidence really - but given our understanding of the universe, I'm prepared to have an open mind rather than label it irrational.

(I was going somewhere with this but lost my way)


Cheers,

Eric
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Post by PraetorScylla »

Hmm . . . identificationa dn perception . . .


i'm not goigjn to continue or argue any of the poitns raised her e, but

isntead raise my own, however . . . child-likje . . . they may be.



I view the world of humans as conssiting of three (main) types of minds.


The child-mind of experience

The child-mind of principle

A complete mind of principle.



A short definition of each:

Child mind of experience: a person who learns by experience, adn not

through thought most of the time; may be a genius when made to think

but does not think beyodn immediate surrondings.

He learns not through thinking and refelcting but by doing and then

applying that process later.

Once he learns he cna lift boxes without help, he will lift boxes without

help. wbut it will not occur to him to try lifting boxes without help.



Child midn of principle:

Someone who has applied the method of learning to learn.

When faced with a problem, they think about it, but not otherwise.

A purely analytical learner.



Complete mind:

A "free" child mind of principle. It thinks without a problem or question

beign posed towards it, and free association means soemthing, VERY few

people think this way.

An "intutitive" learner.




This is relevent to identification and perception thusly:


A child mind of experience will name somethign when it coems along, but

otherwise will live with it.

Ie: he gets sick, and is unable to move. Later, he becomes better and

starts moving around.

He identifies this period of weakness as a "flu".


A child midn of principle will seek to do soemthing, but wills top after that

point.

ie: he gets sick. He gets better, then gets sick again. he idnetifies it as a

flu. He then tries to learn more about it, and discovers that it is a disease

that can be cured by takign medicine


A complete midn will seek to know how, and why soemthign exists,

BEFORE that is aprt of the problem, and also relates it to other things, and

the possbilities it presents.


he gets sick, better,. sick. Identidffies it as a flu, learns it can be cured

with medicine.


He examine sit closer. he discovers it is a small bacteria or virus, of which

the "cure" onyl cures the immediate symptoms, whiel ti still permently

damages the body from within.


Expanding from this, he realizes that living things must be made up of

smaller parts, each of which can fail, without the larger body failing

because of it. He realzies this becuase milliosnof such small things cna hurt

him. Yet, he realizes that millions of small stones, thrown at small

velocties, will not hurt him so long as they don't begin to pile up and crush

him thusly. Yet these small bacteria can make the ;larger body fialo by

makign enough of the smaller parts fail.





The main difference between these mind sets is the amount of detail they

demand from problems. If asked to examine a piece of sand, one will say

that it is a grain of sand; he demands no further explantion form it.


Take note that that same person, with the common knowledge of what

sand is, WILL look further; but no further then he expects the questioner

to expect him to go to.

The second, on identifying it as a grain of sand 9without that common

knowledge), may attempt to expalion (to himself or the questioner), what

defines a grain of sand. This won't change with common knowledge of

what a grain of sand is, but it will change with the common knowledge of

the compostion of a grain of sand.


The third, the complete mind, Will work form both ends. First, what clues

are given by the question? (the same question asked by the first two,

unconsicously, that allows them to use common knowledge to decide a

more detailed answer is wanted)

But after that trail ends, or maybe while it seems to dry up, the complete

mind will wander off and try to find a situation or piece of knowledge, ro

other such that could be made to resemble the grain of sand and thus be

the answer.






"What's this, apprentice?"

"Why, it's a mere grain of sand . . ."

"I know that."

"it is a composition of stones and shells ground by the sea to smaller

particles?"


"I know that"

"it is a tightly joined form of a number of phosphourous, nitrous, oxous, carbon based compounds?"

"I know that"

"is it the city of scion as represented through it's regular trade and the common symbology present in it's location?"

"It may be . . ."
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